AbusiveChurches.org

Rob Allen · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 415

Can anyone tell me just what on earth DPL is about to subject SD to by bringing in educated ministers from outside the church to give seminars about sex, marriage and discipleship? I thought CFC was SEPARATE from the religious world, and proud of it! Boy, those of you in Waukegan better get some earthquake insurance cause I think the old boy is about to roll over!
Ordinarily this would be a refreshing new (un-cultlike) development but at 20 bucks a pop you can bet your butt that every single one of the sheeple will be sitting in that pew listening to these workshops whether they want to or not.
Hee hee. We have a promise that the money raised will not go to the church. Yeah, there is NEVER some elaborate plan that results in green pieces of paper making it into Dan's wallet! Man, what I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall in that accounting office these days. I can see them scouring E-Bay for paper shredders now.
We should all go to one! It can't really be called a CFC function and wouldn't it be interesting to see if Dan would dare try to throw us out in front of his new high-falootin' friends!

Guest · Posted: Feb 28, 2003 9:18 am Post subject:

I saw that, too, and thought it was sort of funny. I think what he's trying to do is get more of the public in there since no one there is willing to invite people to the church because of him!
Dan should be sitting in the FRONT row for that marriage stuff!
He is such a wheeler, dealer, slimy, scheister!
There's no other reason he have this sort of stuff than money.
He's all about money.
Amway, Quixstar, yard sale, auctions, etc. The list goes on and there is no limit to what this man will do for money for himself.
Maybe we should search the San Diego paper for any advertising for these events and do what we can to put a plug in it!
I think I'd be weary of any church with an ATM in the lobby!
AND you can bet that he'll force all of the congregation (probably even the single guys!) to pay the money to attend.

Guest · Posted: Feb 28, 2003 11:27 am Post subject:

Is there really an ATM in the lobby?

Where did you read about these events?

Guest · Posted: Feb 28, 2003 4:06 pm Post subject:

What do you mean by you saw that too? is it written outside on the sign?
The reason Dan would have to get a marriage counselor for the church is because HE HAS FINALLY FACED THE FACT THAT HE IS NOT ONE!! for years people have gone to him and get know where, he always tends to go on the mans side.... I'm sure that is not a shock to anyone. All of his single buddies have gotten married and all of them are having problems.. Dan don't know what to do with his own wife let alone tell someone else what to do with theirs, for years Pastor taylor has abused his wife and treats his kids like crap! so I think it's about time they did something in that church to help the people...
I'm also sure it is another way to try to get visitors in.. it is a shamed that the church it self can't provide a counselor, that alone would tell me that this church can't stand on the word and have it's own spiritual leaders..
Why wouldn't they just send a Pastor from another CFC church to counsel?? hint, hint they have problems too, they can't control their own wives or kids.. this CFC ministry is one big joke......
maybe Pete dosen't know what Dan is doing,Dane does tend to do his own thing from time to time. The whole thought of this is such a joke! because Dan is never going to do what someone else says, and the first thing a counselor touches on is how much time does a couple spend together, all of the people their will find out that their poblem isn't each other, it's the CHURCH AND THE PEOPLE WHO RUN IT!!

Guest · Posted: Feb 28, 2003 5:40 pm Post subject:

No. What I meant in response to the poster above me was that I looked at the website also. duh.

Guest · Posted: Feb 28, 2003 6:14 pm Post subject:

I think all what the church is doing is just to make the church look like their moving in thr right direction towards doing something decent for the congregation. We all know he and the so called leaders are such poor examples of marriage partners. It's all about making themselves look good. They should of had this done along time ago. Obviously for themselves. It's so sad that many of these single men who escaped cfc or sincerely got married were never taught how to be a Godly and good husband. Marriage was truly discouraged! cfc should be paying the counselors of those who are having trouble in their marriages because of marrying a brainwashed man of cfc!

Phil Davis · Joined: 11 Feb 2002 Posts: 168

I must comment that I don't think the average human being needs to be "taught how to be a Godly and good husband" by their church. In particular, I don't think that the "being a husband" aspect of a male CFCMI member's life is any more or less affected by the dysfunctional/screwed up practices and teachings of CFCMI than any other aspect of their existence.

I think the issue is that CFCMI did not foster an environment that encouraged healthy relationships, especially between husband and wife.

I doubt that in a majority of cases marriages between CFCMI members are having trouble because of a CFCMI woman "marrying a brainwashed man of cfc". Remember, it's more like "a brainwashed woman of cfc marrying a brainwashed man of cfc".

From my point of view, with ample first hand experience as a "brainwashed man of cfc" for 16 years (10 single, 6 married), a dual-CFCMI marriage is NOT doomed to trouble just because of the husband's experience as a single CFC staffer. That may be true in some cases, particularly if the husband suffered extreme forms of emotional and sexual abuse...but I expect that in general most have not.

The problems arise from having to constantly choose between meeting the demands of the leadership and meeting the needs of your family. The two are in constant competition, with the former never being satisfied. Thus, to be a good CFC husband, you have to first-and -foremost acquiesce to the unrelenting expectations of your pastor (particularly in the areas of time and money), almost always at the cost of your family. This naturally causes tension. To exacerbate the problem, even when you do finally take out necessary time for your family, you walk a fine line with your own guilt and perhaps even having your wife perceive your priorities and.or spiritual state as being wrong (since that is what the church constantly barrages her with as well). Thus, your damned if you do and damned if you don't...literally.

On top of this, of course, is the constant strain of never having enough money. This is because the church demands that if you have any extra, you should be "giving it to God". Then, when some major thing around the house needs repair, a family emergency arises, the car breaks down, etc., you have to go (usually deeper) into debt. Anyone can tell you that excessive debt reeks havoc on any marriage.

These institutional issues are, I believe, most often the root causes of maritial problems between CFCMI members.

Being a "Godly and good husband" I think comes relatively naturally for most Christians. God has given us these instincts (much like parental instincts), and they don't need to be explicitly taught to someone as a prerequisite for marriage. Certainly, pre-maritial counseling is a wonderful resource and useful for everyone.

I guess I'm just saying that, in general, I think it's a little too tempting to try to pin problems on the 'ole "brainwashed man of cfc" when, really, it's most likely institutional problems of CFCMI that effect every aspect of ALL of our lives (man and woman), but are most apparent in the most critical of relationships...that of husband and wife.

Thanks again for enduring me,
Phil

_________________
"When you sacrifice, someone benefits; if the one telling you to sacrifice is benefiting from your sacrifice, something is wrong."

Alan McIntyre · Joined: 31 Jul 2001 Posts: 520 Location: Norfolk, VA

Phil,

It now occurs to me that there are certain ideas that still naturally come to mind when it comes to relationship problems, and that those ideas contain CFC biases. Two examples from this thread:

"they can't control their own wives or kids"
"trouble in their marriages because of marrying a brainwashed man of cfc"

In CFC it's all about the man being in solid control of the household (whether or not the leadership actually has "control of their household" or not is another matter). If there's a problem of any kind, well - by golly - the root cause is some action or inaction on the husband's part. And that's because there is an unspoken assumption that the woman is not really capable of "acting properly" without her husband's guidance (nevermind that she's just as much of a human being as the husband and all that).

Of course, the next assumption is that the husband is not capable of acting properly without the pastor's guidance (that whole veil-being-rent thing notwithstanding), so there is this dependency structure that encourages/requires everyone to look to someone else for support and guidance (and blame). The sad thing is, that the people at the top of this 'dependency graph' really don't care about the well-being of those under them; they're just interested in being in control.

So, when a person or couple leaves, they aren't really capable of handling a lot of things for themselves, like money or meeting their spouse's emotional needs. Both members of a couple will probably have unrealistic expectations of each other, and of course it's easy to think that your partner is the one that has problems, not you (I think we guys are good at this - we had such good role models in this regard). When you add up the money problems, relationship problems, and all the other problems, it's a lot to deal with (and learn) at once, so I guess it's not surprising that a lot of marriages have rough times after departing groups like CFC.

Personally, I'm glad that Dionne and I actually had the opportunity to get to know each other before we got married, otherwise we wouldn't still be together. Both of us have changed a lot since our departure from CFC, but we had been acquainted long enough to at least have some idea of each others' basic personalities. I'm really glad we circumvented all those silly dating rules; too bad I felt guilty about it at the time and didn't have the presence of mind to give Ed a one-finger salute instead. I guess it's never too late to make up for things like that though....

The environment in CFC essentially sets up every marriage and individual for rough times, if not for failure. Maybe it's part of the reason groups like CFC survive so long - people leaving the group often stumble and fall while they're trying to learn to walk again, which makes it easy to scare those that haven't left yet.

Anyway, sorry for rambling.

Alan

_________________
"I swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another person, or ask another person to live for mine."

*** Edited becuz I can't spell ***

[ This Message was edited by: Alan McIntyre on 2003-02-28 22:41 ]

Alan McIntyre · Joined: 31 Jul 2001 Posts: 520 Location: Norfolk, VA

And now to post something more on-topic.

What would have happened to any one of us that went 'outside the church' for counseling of any kind? Hellfire and brimstone, that's what.

But now they're bringing in outside counselors and paying them on top of that?? I have a question for Dan: do these people teach the Oneness doctrine? do they believe baptism in Jesus' name essential to salvation? If not, they why are you inviting them in to teach your congregation?

I have heard this sort of reasoning applied to many things in the past (whose music you should listen to, whose bible commentary was worthwhile), so I'm just wondering why it doesn't apply in this case.

I invite someone from the leadership to explain themselves here.

_________________
"I swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another person, or ask another person to live for mine."

[ This Message was edited by: Alan McIntyre on 2003-02-28 22:10 ]

JPoyer · Joined: 09 Apr 2002 Posts: 471 Location: VA and NJ

Alan,
That salute is a trip!
Just 2 comments - if anyone cares.
One is (I think I've said this before) when we were in San Diego, I was very surprised that even the married couples gave their checkbooks over to Dan/Jeff to control. When we were asked to do so, I said "heyl no!" I felt that was one of my responsibilites of being a wife and mother, certainly not the churchs responsibility. That is one issue that proves the church is VERY controlling in that area. I never understood why someone would do that. Married or single. One of the single girls in the Navy told her parents that the church was pressuring her to give them her checkbook. Of course her parents advised her not to do it, but even after that, she was continually pressured because she lived in the apts. with the other single women.
I can't imagine what it would be like to be single in the church and then marry in the church. I figured it was a difficult transition because it didn't seem that y'all were permitted to spend much time together at all - single OR married. You're kept busy either way - as Phil describes. When you're married though, you're forced to choose more or less.
And, being a Navy wife, as many of you are (and husbands, too), at least 6 months of every year, we make all the decisions and don't have the luxury of consulting with the husband/wife all of the time. We're capable.

I can think of only one time I asked Pastor Thomas for his guidance when Jake was away and it was a huge issue that I'd never been faced with before and wasn't sure what to do next, so I asked him, because I figured that he'd dealt with many different situations. I also consulted the Phibron Chaplain.
I guess that has alot to do with being married before we entered the ministry.
I can't imagine what it would have been like the other way around. I did observe alot of it with the marriages during my time there. They seemed a little strained.

[ This Message was edited by: JPoyer on 2003-03-01 09:07 Cause I keep getting more thoughts. ]

[ This Message was edited by: JPoyer on 2003-03-01 09:09 ]

Guest · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 8:36 am Post subject:

Well said Phil! I wish you the best with your family and your career. I hope that someday you can do something to really bring the house down on CFC with your influence.
But if not, your presence here has meant alot to many of us!

Agent 006 · Joined: 06 Sep 2002 Posts: 398

[

Alan:

I just love this little guy!

Guest · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 8:52 pm Post subject:

You know when you leave cfc you dont return to the pit from which you came, you leave the pit you were conned into jumping in.

Mike Dougherty · Joined: 17 Sep 2001 Posts: 416 Location: Jersey City, NJ

[ This Message was edited by: Mike Dougherty on 2003-03-04 09:42 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Mike Dougherty on 2003-03-04 09:43 ]

Guest · Posted: Mar 04, 2003 6:09 pm Post subject:

CFC has been nothing more than a scam. Where is the great Christian college that was promised? A place where knowledge and understanding would be available for those who want to serve the Lord. They don’t want to send people out, they want them to be available for their service. Their reason for enforcing rules is to maintain maximum efficiency of the hive, thereby increasing the fruits of the harvest they reap each year.

LRs dinosaurs and (new)bees believe that at the end of the day, if they have done more good than bad, they are pleasing God. Choosing rather to please men the bees overlook the fact that they could make a better decision by not partaking in behavior that is sinful or that does not build a good spiritual foundation in their lives or those around them.

The first family would and has sunk thousands of dollars without batting an eye, defending the old man and on themselves. Think of all the money spent on their physical ailments, diseases and cosmetic, over the years. They obviously love each other (if that’s what you want to call it). Have they shown the same to each of you?

The scam has endured for years. The scam has recently transformed itself into a new form called Quixtar. In awe of the great pyramid, the bees with fever, toil believing that some day they will partake of its riches.

Not all those who attend CFC are loyal to CFC. I have heard of those that read here and tell others to come to this site and read the truth. I believe that they are strong and are waiting and watching what goes on. They don’t tell us what they know but they observe all and will see to it that things are dealt with properly when necessary. I am glad for them and we all know that this makes certain CFC people squirm.